Zephyr Society EP11 -- Jewher Ilham: Listen to the Voice of Uyghur
Regarding the ongoing humanitarian crisis in Xinjiang, listen to the story of Jewher Ilham, the daughter of Uyghur human rights activist and scholar Tohti Ilham, as she talks about...
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Event date:9/23/2023
Location:New York, NY
Host:
Jewher Ilham is a Uyghur human rights activist. She works at the Worker Rights Consortium and serves as a spokesperson for the Coalition to End Forced Labour. Her father Ilham Tohti is an economist researching income disparity between the north and south of Tian Shan, and the issue of unemployment. He was also the founder and host of the website Uyghur Online. Nine years ago today—on September 23, 2014—he was sentenced to life imprisonment for the crime of splitting the state.
Thank you, Jewher, for accepting our lecture invitation and coming to New York. We have a few questions for you. Firstly, please teach us how to pronounce “Uyghur” in English.
Jewher Ilham:
Thank you to Democracy Salon (now known as Zephyr Society 热风) for inviting me. This first question is very important to me. In English, many people hear the pronunciation: Ui-ghur. Right? So typically, even in dictionaries or pronunciation guides,
it is often said as “Ui-ghur”, or, err, I forgot the other common pronunciation. But I made a short video before, simply because I found that most people don’t actually know how to pronounce it correctly, the word “Uyghur”. The correct pronunciation is “Ui-woo-er”. Why is this matter important? Let’s say someone… let’s use China as an example. If people often say “You are from Gee-na”, or if they use a different pronunciation and claim that’s just how it’s pronounced in their language, you are probably not going to be very happy. So the issues Uyghurs are facing, one of the big problems is cultural genocide, and another one is unrecognized identity. Well, if even the names of our language and our identity cannot be recognized correctly, I feel that the efforts to save our culture, this is not going to be very helpful. And there is one thing I’d like to mention. This is my first event in Chinese. I haven’t really spoken Chinese for about 10 years, so my Chinese has regressed quite a bit. I may stutter in some words. If you don’t understand me, please raise your hand. As I am not wearing glasses today, I may not see you looking confused, so let me know by raising your hand. Otherwise, I can’t see very clearly. Feel free to interrupt me at any time. Raise your hand anytime you have a question. Also, I talk a lot. I have ADHD, so I may go off-topic. If I don’t directly answer your question, don’t be shy. Please don't be shy. Just ask your question again. I am not ignoring you on purpose. This is a real condition that I live with, so I’d like to mention it first. Thank you for coming to today’s event in the rain. I am truly grateful.
Host:
Thank you. Your Chinese is very good. Okay, let’s move on to the next question. How do Uyghurs see the name “Xinjiang” as a region, or as a political unit?
Jewher Ilham:
This is another excellent question. The word “Xinjiang” is actually a very recent term. The Chinese government loves to say “Xinjiang has been our inseparable land since ancient times.” However, the word “Xinjiang” only emerged around 1934. There was no such a concept before. What does “Xinjiang” mean? Xin is new, and Jiang is territory. New Territory. What does that mean? It means the territory was not originally yours. It was not there in the first place. Or, it was there, but not what this name meant. The word Xinjiang is a word with a very colonial connotation. So for Uyghurs like me, until 2019, I’ve always referred to the area as Xinjiang, because I didn’t know what other terms I should use. I didn’t know what was justifiable, what was correct, and what name made me feel at ease. The word is a sensitive issue. Why is that? When not using the word Xinjiang, people would think do we want to say “East Turkestan (Sherqiy Turkistan)”? It’s a term that made the Chinese government hate guts. I am not a historian. I was born and raised in Beijing. The time I spent in Xinjiang in total was no more than 2 years—in the winter and summer holidays when I went there to visit my grandmas. For me, to this region my attachment—how do you say “attachment” in Chinese? Emotional connection. My attachment is not that strong, not as strong as the Uyghurs who were born and raised in my hometown. My connection to Xinjiang was established later on. So are my culture and language. I didn’t speak Uyghur. I learned it after I came to the US. Although my first language was actually Uyghur. That’s the language I spoke first. But after I was 2, when I started nursery, I completely lost my Uyghur. So, the word Xinjiang, once I heard about the concentration camp in 2019, once I knew about the genocide and cultural genocide, I would never want to use the word again. Not just because of its colonial connotation, but also because it hurt us Uyghurs. So when the Chinese government named this region Xinjiang, many promises were made. They made many promises, and gave expectations to the local people, saying: hey, if you become part of us, I’d give you this, I’d give you that. I’d guarantee your cultural rights, guarantee your religious rights, guarantee your right to speak your own language and guarantee you’d have this and that. But have these promises been delivered? Have they been delivered to the hands of the Uyghurs? No. Not really. So isn’t it natural that Uyghurs no longer want to accept this word, this name, the name that was forced on us? The word East Turkestan is also relatively new. But overseas Uyghurs accept this term more. Why is that? Because when this East Turkestan was truly a country on its own, the area belonged to the Uyghurs themselves. The Uyghur language was safe. One wanted to speak his own language, he could, one wanted to present his own culture, he could. If one wanted to believe in his own religion, or not to, he could. There were not any legal or non-legal restrictions. So the term East Turkestan, to many Uyghurs, is a lot more preferable. More acceptable, more acceptable. Excuse me, I said earlier that if I don’t know how to say something, he’ll help me translate. However, East Turkestan is politicized by the Chinese government. It is sensitized as a word. It shouldn’t be like this. It’s just a historic place name. But why is it that many people dare not say it? Because as soon as the word is said, people immediately feel that the Voldemort is out. Well, you know who. The person’s name cannot be said. The place’s name cannot be said. Immediately everyone starts to shiver, including the Uyghurs themselves. I myself up until probably last year, wouldn’t use in public the term “East Turkestan”, even in the third person. East Turkestan, this term, I would not use it. Why is that? Because the Chinese government successfully demonized, politicized, and sensitized this word. And criminalized—how is this word translated? Criminalized. You understand what I mean. Thanks. That’s good. Everyone is scared to this degree, which means the Chinese government has truly achieved its intention. So its effort, its efforts, are successful. It successfully delivered the fear to all of us. When “East Turkestan” is said, what is your first reaction? Separation, violence, terror, extreme? Right? Even though you are now aboard, and many of you have been introduced to various democratic ideas, as soon as East Turkestan is mentioned, people declare “I am not supporting Xinjiang independence”. People’s first reaction is usually like this, including the Uyghurs themselves. I myself, for many years, feel like I am unconsciously demonizing, consciously or unconsciously demonizing this word. Because the Chinese government shaped this idea. Whether through education or through media, this idea is shaped. Then, what do Uyghurs really prefer? It’s different for everyone. I do not represent all Uyghurs. It’s like in the US, there are Democrats, Republics, Independents, and people who don’t believe in any party. Uyghurs are the same. Everyone believes in different political ideas. Even if they support East Turkestan as a name for an area, it doesn’t mean they have a political preference. I think this is a very important issue. I just want to clarify that not all who refer to this area as East Turkestan have a political affiliation. It does not mean he supports Xinjiang's Independence. Even if so, it does not mean he is extreme. It does not mean he is violent. No. Everyone’s political orientation and level are different. I cannot represent all. I myself rarely speak Chinese. I rarely need to refer to this region in Chinese. I usually say “the Uighur Region” because it is an academic term. It’s straightforward. Straight forward. Uighur, region, means Uighur region. That’s what it means. The reason why I don’t say “Uighur Autonomous Region” is because it’s not autonomous now. Uyghurs do not enjoy any autonomy now. So I don’t say Uighur autonomous region, because it is not autonomous. Even if it is promised autonomy, the Uyghurs don’t enjoy true autonomy. So I myself prefer a name that is not political, not politicized, and relatively safe. A name that does not offend anyone: the Uighur Region, because it does not have any political connotation. So I no longer want to use the term Xinjiang. For many Uyghurs, when they hear you say Xinjiang, even though they are well, how do I put this, they are not that involved in politics, they would more or less feel sad and hurt. Because this name is not by the Uyghurs themselves but given by the Chinese government instead. Of course, this is up to you. I have no, I have no right to require you to say something or not to say something. I am just telling you what the Uyghurs, what it is that many Uyghurs are asking for, what makes them more comfortable, and what, well, is not so offensive, would not be that offensive. Thank you.
Host:
So you think the Uighur Region is, in our interaction with the Uyghurs, a term that’s relatively safer, relatively less political.
Jewher Ilham:
Yes, for you, your personal safety, it’s relatively safer. Because the Chinese government might (be watching), when you send messages, even if in the third person, saying someone said East Turkestan. As it is a sensitive word, it will be immediately detected. “Detected”, as in Chinese. So if you use Uighur region, it’s not as sensitive. For your family and your own personal safety, it is better. I am not suggesting words for you to use. But for people who might be concerned about their own safety, I am telling you what are the options. I also know some people use “Uighur Homeland”, meaning the homeland of the Uyghurs. I like this word too, because it is simple and straight forward, like hometown of Hunan people, hometown of North easterners, hometown of Beijingers. It is not offensive. The term is also heart-warming for the Uyghurs, one that brings warm memories. At least it is like that for me. I do not represent all Uyghurs.
Host:
Thank you to Jewher for your suggestion. Can you tell us what you do now?
Jewher Ilham:
Yes. First of all, being a human right activist, human rights activist, is an activity during my spare time. My actual work is monitoring labor right…how do you say monitoring in Chinese? Monitoring organization. Observatory organization. Yes yes. When I came (to the US) in my teens, I had not learned these words. So they would often escape me. Please excuse me. Our main work is in 24 different countries, in South East Asia, and in Latin America. My work is specifically studying the China Hongkong area, and China mainland, as well as the Uyghur region. I research into forced labor and violation of labor rights. So a lot of my work every day is to look at import data, export data, and do research into which brands are associated with forced labor, and how to solve this issue. This is what I do now. I also give recommendations to the US government or European governments on how to improve their existing laws to help Uyghurs escape the destiny of being forced to work in factories.
Host:
What is supporting you to fight for the human rights of the Uyghurs?
Jewher Ilham:
Many things. First of all, I am the daughter of Ilham Tohti. If not for my father, my involvement in the field of human rights, would probably have never happened, or would probably be very late — not from my teenage years. Because I was thrown into this country. I didn’t choose to come here. I was living a good life in Beijing. I had my own friends there, and like everyone else, I was enjoying going out, shopping, and studying as I wanted. I was living a very normal, very normal life that people wanted. But my father got arrested at the airport. My father and I were arrested together at the airport. I was only a teenager then. They, the Chinese government officials, probably felt I was not going to cause much trouble, so they let me go. They said if I wanted to go, I could. If I wanted to stay, I could. Then my father pushed me towards the plane, saying “You take this opportunity. This might be your last chance. If you don't go, you might never be able to.” He said — I remembered this very clearly — when I refused to leave at the time, my father said: “Look around you. Look at how this country is treating you. And you still want to stay? What’s keeping you here?” I said it’s you. It’s my family (that’s keeping me here). I didn’t know anyone in the US and I didn’t speak the language. You came here after studying TOEFL, IELTS, etc, right? I didn’t. When I came here, I didn’t have any money. I didn’t know anyone. I had no family. If not for the arrest of my father, I would probably not be doing any human rights work. When I threw myself into this work in 2019, I was not just speaking up for my father, I was speaking up for all that’s happened to the Uyghurs. So, another reason is because I am a Uyghur. After I came to the US, I learned my own language. For the first time in my life, I met so many Uyghurs. When I was in Beijing, there were very few Uyghurs. I went to Uyghur activities, and all kinds of festivals, which I never had a chance to do before. Also my religion. Before I came to the US, I didn’t have a chance to really practice my Islamic religion. I never had the opportunity. The most I had done was not to eat pork. But back then, I didn’t know why I couldn’t eat pork, or why I couldn’t drink alcohol. No one explained that to me, because schools did not allow you to learn about it. In Beijing, you cannot wear a head covering in school. There was one year that I wanted to try fasting. So for Uyghurs, during the Muslim month of Ramadan, from sunrise to sunset, you cannot eat or drink water. I didn’t know back then that I shouldn’t drink water. I just knew that I shouldn’t eat. So I drank water all day. And that day of fasting didn’t actually count. But I tried to. My teacher found this out and I was given a caution. I was told it was not allowed. I wanted to try to worship in the dormitory, but I didn’t know how to. I only knew a small part of the verses. You actually have to recite a rather long chunk. I only knew that bit, so I repeated it 10 times. How I did it was not correct either, as no one had taught me. No one taught you in true Islam, how you should practice, what the steps are, or what it is like. No one taught you. No opportunity to learn. On top of that, I was without an environment for it. So I thought if no one was doing it, and no one was allowed it, then it was okay for me not to practice if I couldn’t. So I wasn’t very religious, because I didn’t have a way to learn about my own culture and my religion. When I came to the US, for the first time in my life, I stepped into a mosque, for the first time I touched a Quran, for the first time I heard Quran verses without police coming to knock on the door. That sense of shock, for me, was very strong. It was in 2019 that my sense of belonging to my culture, my sense of desperation for my culture that’s about to extinct, that prompted me to do (what I am doing now). It’s such a long answer to a short question. But really, I think many Uyghurs experienced the same. Many Uyghurs were probably not religious at all before. There were a lot of secular Uyghurs who did not practice Islam much. And many may not even speak Uyghur very well. Many of them are “Min kao han” —ethnic students learning Mandarin and studying at Han schools. Like me, I am a typical Min kao han. I had no foundation in the Uyghur language. Without the language, it was only after I came to the US that I wanted to know about my own culture, I wanted to know about the religion and I wanted to learn the language. Why? Because we know that in our hometown, in our homeland, all of these are being eradicated. Gradually, you would lose contact with it. Many Uyghurs devote themselves to the cause of human rights, for this exact reason. That’s how I think.
Host:
In other words, your strong sense of Uyghur identity started after you came to the US.
Jewher Ilham::
It was given by the Chinese government. If the Chinese government didn’t oppress the Uyghurs (things would be different). My dad actually once said something that I totally agree with: ethnical integration is inevitable. Once you are somewhere for long, no matter what language you spoke, what culture background you had, what religion, as long as you spend time somewhere, it’s inevitable. It’s something bound to happen. Maybe to different degrees, but you will more or less integrate, ethnically, culturally, and religiously. The Uyghurs didn’t first believe in Islam. We believed in Buddhism, Shamanism first. Then through the silk road, after Islamic merchants, Islamic missionaries came, we started to, over a thousand years ago, be influenced by it and became Muslim. This is an example of cultural integration. However, my father said before that forcing cultures to integrate is wrong. When you are forced to do anything, just like at home, it will cause the opposite. For example, you were going to clean your room, but your father came and told you to do it, you no longer wanted to. We’ve all experienced this. When others insist on you doing something, you don’t want to anymore. No one likes to be forced. It’s in our nature. We are all very wid. We were born without constraint. From birth, we ourselves began to grow up step by step. But once someone forces you to say certain languages, to believe in certain things or to not believe in certain things, and once someone forces you to marry Han Chinese, to learn the Han language, to eat non-halal, they are all against your nature and against the environment you grow up in. In times like this, naturally, Uyghurs, and other nationalities, will naturally resist. For example, if you as a Chinese coming to the US, are asked to not speak any Chinese in the future, and asked to abandon all Chinese traditional culture, I am sure you will, on the contrary, start to secretively practice Chinese calligraphy, painting, etc at home. You will be thinking that this is my Chinese tradition. I want to do it. It’s the same for the Uyghurs. It’s for the same reason.
Host:
So Jewher, you mentioned your father. As you said, he is, in terms of Uyghur human rights, a relatively moderate advocate.
Jewher Ilham:
Very moderate.
Host:
Can you tell us about his current situation?
Jewher Ilham:
Actually, today marks the 9th anniversary of my father’s life sentence. I hesitated to come to New York for this event. But then I thought, it is actually a perfect occasion. I feel it is time, well, for me, it is time to speak with the Chinese-speaking audience and to communicate with them. Because I would also like to know what you are thinking, and what your thoughts are. Especially since it has been a few years since COVID-19, I think people’s opinions on the Chinese government must have changed, triggered by these years. My father, in the past 9 years…(9 years because) was arrested on January 15 and sentenced in September, on September 23, 2014. First of all, before my father, was arrested… From before the arrest, to arrest, then to sentence, none of these procedures by the Chinese government was legal. For my father, after 2017, family visits were not allowed. Between his sentence in September 2014 and 2017, my father was allowed visits—once every 3 months. For normal political prisoners, it’s once a month. This is a term in the Chinese Constitution itself. It was once every 3 months for our family. After 2017, even the once every 3 months visits were taken away. We don’t know what my father’s situation is now. I’ve heard many rumors. Some say he was teaching others in prison. Some say he was transferred to other prisons. In theory, he should be in the Urumqi No. 1 Prison. But I don’t know if this is true. I’ve also heard people say the Chinese government stopped allowing visits because he had died in prison, but for fear of overseas public opinion, the Chinese government dared not let people know. I have heard many rumors. But because I have not seen him—I have not been back to China since I left, I have not seen him, or had phone calls with him, I don’t know at all how he is. When he was first put in prison, he lost 40 pounds of weight within just a few months. Because he was made to hunger strike twice, 10 days each time. My dad is actually still young. He was born in 1969, on October 25. He was only just in his forties when he was arrested, but his hair had gone grey. You can look it up on the CCTV channel. When he was sentenced, there is a short footage. In the video, his hair was all grey and he was so thin. My dad used to be, well, we are all quite chubby in our family and my dad used to be the chubbiest. But look at him in the video. The clothes he was wearing were sent in by my family. It was his own clothes. It dangled on him. He lost so much weight. So you can imagine for the first few months in prison, he was indeed not well. I have also heard that when he was first put in prison, he was kept with murderers and real criminals. He was beaten up inside, etc. Later on… Also, his hands were handcuffed. And he wore shackles, very heavy shackles. My father is first of all an intellectual. No one is more like an intellectual than him. He was just a chubby and frail intellectual. But he was shackled like that as if he were a serious criminal who had committed a lot of violence. He was kept with many violent criminals, which made him very unwell in there. Later on, we heard he was transferred to solitary confinement, solitary confinement. Then I heard of a person from the same prison, who was released early. He said he had seen my father in prison. There was a small TV in my father’s cell. This TV, for 24 hours, plays Xi Jinping’s Thoughts non-stop. It plays the President’s remarks continuously, to brainwash. And it’s very loud, loud enough for the cells nearby to hear. It plays non-stop, even late at night, Xi Jinping’s Thoughts, how good the Chinese Communist Party is, etc. It plays round the clock. when I heard about this, I couldn’t check on it, because I could not visit him in prison. I heard that the TV has very high color saturation. At night time, it was extremely bright for one’s eyes, even if you closed your eyes. It’s torture mentally and physically. I also heard that the first hunger strike was because they refused to give my father halal food. It seemed like they gave him a non-halal Han meal. He then said: first of all, we are in Urumqi, where Uyghurs live, so it means many prisoners are Uyghur. You should have a halal option. This is a basic human right. You should at least offer a vegetarian option, right? But they refused it. It is an insulting compulsive measure, a step, a measure used by the Chinese government. So after 2017, I actually don’t know what happened to my father. We have been calling on the Chinese government to release him, but we also really want to call for allowing family visits. So I hope that if you are not worried about speaking up online, if you are not afraid for your safety, and you are willing to speak up online, I think the first thing to do, a practical and achievable thing is to call on the Chinese government to allow visits. Of my 2 younger brothers, the younger one was only 3 when my father was taken away in front of them. He was only 3. The older one was 7. Right in front of them, my father was very violently taken away from home. Until now, my brother still suffers psychologically, and has heart problems, from being traumatized at the time. PTSD. So the whole family really misses my father. I really miss my father. I am the lucky one because I have a lot of nice memories with my father. My parents divorced early and I was raised by my father. I was the first daughter and the only daughter of my dad. My dad always called me the apple of his eye. But now I don’t have any news of my dad. I am getting married next month. But there is no one to… Excuse me. By our Muslim tradition, when you get married, your father…well, Americans hold their fathers’ hands to walk down the aisle. Our tradition is your father holds your husband’s hand, saying I am handing my daughter in your care. Then when signing the Muslim marriage contract, it is the father who signs. But I can’t find anyone to sign for me. My fiancé has always greatly admired my father. My fiancé is not an Uyghur, but he studied Uyghur and its culture, and seriously studied all of my father’s remarks as if he was reciting “Quotations from Chairman Mao”. But his biggest regret is he couldn’t get my father’s blessing. He couldn’t meet my father and ask him “Can I marry your daughter?” He couldn’t ask for my hand from my father for this marriage with his daughter. I have been refusing to marry him for a long time, as I kept hoping that my father might be released, and we would be able to…but I am nearly in my thirties, and I have to grudgingly say yes, okay. Don’t let him hear this. Sorry, this is a very long answer to your short question.
Host:
In your memory, what is your father like?
Jewher Ilham:
Well, my father is different in everyone’s heart. I have seen many sides of him. He is funny, or at least he tries to be. And he is very optimistic. I think I’ve got this trait from him. We are the kind who will, in the worst situation still laugh about things. You might have already seen a bit of that in me. You don't know me that well, so you may not know, but my family, we turn the worst situation into a funny situation. My father was sentenced to life, and guess what he said the next day? He said to his lawyer, well, I have been locked up for 9 months and this is the first night I slept well. His lawyer was like: What? What are you talking about? He then said, well, lucky it is a life sentence. I thought it was going to be a death sentence. Good to be alive. Good to be alive. For a normal person getting a life sentence, the first reaction is usually not what he was like, I think. But when I heard this, I was not surprised at all. I didn’t find it odd, because my dad is just like that. He is very optimistic. He is very positive. My family has experienced too much misfortune, but we have never felt miserable. Because we can always, like my father always taught me, find from any unfortunate event a silver lining, and just focus on that. Like I was thrown to this country, and I was on my own, he used to say, look, aren’t you doing well? You’ve been saying I control you too much, but look, no one is controlling you now. You can learn English, and you can travel. Isn’t that good? So that’s my father’s way of thinking. He always sees a good thing, to the extent that many people, many Uyghurs find my father too moderate, too positive, and too optimistic. Uncle Örkesh is here. He is one of those who think my father is overly optimistic. Many people feel that my father blindly trusted the Chinese government, thinking that there would be change. Up until the day before yesterday, I had been hopeful, thinking the Chinese government would change. Why the day before yesterday? Because that day, I heard that an anthropology professor, a female Uyghur professor, Rahile Dewat (راھىلە داۋۇت) was also sentenced to life. What is the difference between this professor and my father? My father really paid attention to politics. He made remarks and criticized the government. While none of those is illegal, but OK, I see why the Chinese government targets him. Sorry, I am speaking in English again. At least I can understand why the Chinese government picked on my dad. However, this anthropology professor is the most academic among the academics. All she did was research Uyghur culture, Uyghur tombs, and various Uyghur traditions. She had nothing to do with politics, yet she was given a life sentence, claiming she was a separationist subverting the regime. When I heard of this, my little hope for the Chinese government, that last ray of hope, has been extinguished. I am a very optimistic person. Everyone says my father and I come out of the same mold. I am his copy-paste version. We look alike and we have the same personality. I don’t know if my father, after 10 years, is still that optimistic and positive. But 2 days ago, when I heard of the life sentence for the professor, it took away my last ray of hope for the Chinese government to change.
My father is very positive and optimistic, and he is very gentle. Many Uyghurs and scholars even think of my father as too moderate. They think my father should be more radical. Although the Chinese government has been calling my father extreme, till now, the government just cannot provide any solid evidence to actually prove that my father is extreme, subverting the state, or is a separationist. You look at a lot of his interviews and articles. His view is one that many Uyghurs do not want to see, which is to resist division. A lot of my father’s remarks were (against division). But where did he come from? He felt like there were 1.3 billion Han Chinese, but just tens of millions of Uyghurs. Whether in terms of force, political power, or resources, (confrontation) will only result in the Uyghurs bleeding like rivers, depleted of their people and their resources, and the risk of cultural extinction. He came from what he believed to be good for the Uyghurs. He felt that the division and the struggle for it would not lead to real independence, but only violence and blood. He didn’t want to see that outcome, so he has always been against division, which he deemed impractical. My dad is optimistic, though I think he is also rather realistic. Many overseas Uyghurs think that for the Uyghurs, the only way to democracy and freedom is to go independent. Not because of how much hatred they hold against China, but because they feel this is the only route. Unless the Uyghurs have their own country, and their own regime, otherwise, the Uyghur culture, sovereignty, religious belief, and voice, will never be respected. The Uyghurs would always be third-class citizens —not even second-class. So that’s the situation now. Han people are first-class citizens, other ethnic minorities are second-class, and Uyghurs are the last, the lowest-class citizens. You can directly and on a large scale detain them in various concentration camps and re-education centers. You can even get away with it, i.e. doing that without facing collective societal condemnation. This signifies that Uyghurs are the lowest-class citizens in China.
Host:
We know that this situation, to a certain degree, has something to do with the stereotype the Chinese government forced on the Uyghurs, such as nut cake sellers, thieves, people who can really hurt others, who are violent. So, can you tell us how is this stereotype formed?
Jewher Ilham:
Firstly, the compressed nut cakes, low education, thieves…These phenomena do exist but are not universally prevalent. Thieves, fraud, counterfeits— these things exist. They are phenomena present in China, but they are not widespread among all Chinese people. It’s actually the same principle. But because, first of all, the Uyghur population is relatively small compared to the overall, population of China, however, we are highly recognizable. When we walk on the streets in China, people would either think you are from Xinjiang, or they think you are a foreigner. You are one or the other. Actually, since I was a child, if people saw me on the street, and mistook me as a foreigner, they’d be nice to me and want to practice English with me. They’d want to shower me with gifts. As soon as they found out I was Uyghur, their eyes immediately rolled to the back of their heads. This situation is because stereotypes are prevalent. Firstly, whether it’s in the news, or in textbooks, Uyghurs are always portrayed as, to put it harshly, someone who is greedy and lazy, who knows nothing but to sing, dance, and eat. When people think of Uyghurs, they generally think, “Oh, your food is good, you all know how to dance, and you all sing well.” I am sure for all of you present here, your main impression of the Uyghurs includes these. Certainly, everyone thinks a person can sing and dance because it’s an ethnic advantage. This is something people—how should I put it—this is because you have been fed too much information, and you think of it by default. Just like Americans think all Chinese are good at math, know Kungfu. It’s actually very comparable, but is it true? Not everyone is like that. At least in our school, there were quite a few people who failed exams. Maybe it’s because the education, the level of education, and the methods are different. Then why is it that things like low education, violence, and nut cakes, although not widespread, why do they exist? And why is it that Uyghurs are perceived as a homeless and jobless, and the image of thieves? Did you ever think why do they end up in this situation? Is it that all of a sudden, I decide today when I grow up, instead of becoming an astronaut, I want to be a thief? I don’t think so. Then why do they choose this profession, and end up in this situation? It’s because they don’t have a choice, or the right to choose. This was part of my father’s research. On his website, there was a section to help homeless Uyghur children. Many homeless children end up becoming thieves. These thieves would grow up. As children, they were trafficked from the Uyghur region to the mainland. They were probably very young, 5 or 6 years old when they were trafficked. Since then, they have been taught how to pickpocket quickly, how to rob fast, how to use their cute, foreigner-looking faces to gain sympathy and let others give them money, make others let down their guards, etc. That’s all they knew. That’s all they have been taught. When they grow up, they become thieves that stay on the mainland. At that time, my father was often not home. I was raised by my father, however, many times he would be gone for a month because he went to help others and help homeless children. I read an article on him before. He went to interview a girl of 13 or 14 years of age, who was trafficked to the mainland. He asked her: why are you here? (The girl said:) I was brought here many years ago. She said, “If I don’t steal, the ‘uncle’ will touch me.” So for many of them, they have to make a choice. Do you choose sexual harassment or gender sexual harassment, or do you choose to steal so you can live and have something to eat? Many don’t have any choice. They give you very limited choices and let you pick. Many anti-pickpocketing groups have given my father a hand in saving homeless children. I don’t know if now, this kind of activity to help homeless children still exists. At the time, one big focus for my father was to help street children. Many thieves actually started from being street children. Being trafficked is the starting point. It's the trigger cause. Then, on nut cakes, actually, I had nut cake for the first time after I came to the US. So I didn’t know it was a Uyghur pastry. Maybe other areas had it, but I had not seen it before. I looked it up later online, thinking I hadn’t seen such a thing. It's not a very common thing. Maybe it was different in other areas. I have only been to the cities near my hometown and nutcake was not common. So I think force selling nutcakes is a very wrong approach. Whatever the reason, they shouldn’t do it. Whether it’s forced selling, or violently raising prices, I don't think these should exist. Then why did they do it? Why did they travel thousands of miles and spend days on the train to get to the mainland to sell nut cakes? Why? What is it that made you give up on finding a job, and sacrifice a chance to be educated? This also is, I think, a question that needs our deep thinking. My father researched why the education level for many Uyghurs was very low. He found through statistics that the employment rate for Uyghur university graduates is only just over 10%. And now, in China, there is a culture of going Goblin mode, because of the low employment rate. You can imagine in those years, for Uyghurs, even if they graduated from a famous university, they couldn’t even find a job as a typist. Many job vacancies would explicitly state that they only want Han Chinese, or say no Uyghur, Tibetan…They would specify and exclude a few ethnic minority groups. But they would accept other more sinicized ethnic minorities. Like if you are an Zhuang minority, Manchu minority, you’d be accepted. But if you have stronger ethnic features, if you look slightly different, they don’t want you. So if your whole family saved up money from years of farming and selling crops, worked hard for years, and finally managed to support you to go to university. You worked hard only to find out that you can’t find a job. Many people would say, what’s the point of going to university? I might as well stay with my parents, provide for them when they get old, and help them farm and sell melons, or sell nut cakes. I don’t know. Many people would make this choice. If I had invested so much effort and money, if I had contributed everything from my family, from Xin…You see, I automatically say “Xinjiang” now. From the Uyghur region, it's not easy to go to the mainland for schools. Because first of all, it's again a problem of unfair education and unequal educational facilities. Teachers in the Uyghur region are migrant farmers hired from the mainland. They can’t even speak Mandarin well, yet they are teaching. And then you have to answer the same exam paper and compete with students in the mainland. Why are there so few Uyghur (university) students on the mainland? Because their education level and the educational facilities are inadequate. When the students on the mainland are using projectors to watch various English films or being trained and taught in English, my cousins only start, in the second year of secondary school, learning ABC. How can you compete in the Gaokao (university entry exam)? Your starting line is way behind. And think about it, even if you study very hard, you might still not get an ideal score in Gaokao, so why bother? You don’t go to university. Or you worked hard and finally got into university. You might be from a wealthier family and have a tutor. Your family got you a tutor or sent you to extra classes after school, so you made it to a very good university. Yet you still can’t find a job. What do you choose? You have to do something to support your family. It doesn’t mean that they choose to be thieves or sell nut cakes, or make any choices considered right. Very often they don’t have a choice. The options they have might be the best ones under the circumstances. Should they be 100% responsible for that choice? I think we need to ponder on this.
Talking about this reminds me of the education inequality that we just talked about. I’d like to remind many people. Very often they say, “The welfare policies for you are so good; why aren’t you grateful to the Chinese government? Each year, the Chinese government invests in this and that in Xinjiang, and you get an extra 50 points (in entry exams). But you still can’t pass the entry exam; are you stupid? They Uyghurs are stupid.” First of all, I don’t think any ethnicity is born stupid. There are dumb people, but no dumb race. I think it is a very racist viewpoint to consider a race or an ethnic group as stupid. That, I think, is very racist, a form of discrimination. There must be people in the world who are not very intelligent, that’s a reality. But there are also people who are highly intelligent. But you can’t say because you belong to a certain race, you are dumb. I think the nurturing conditions are very important. I want to say something about Uyghurs. It’s about the language ability. You might think we are good at learning languages, that most Uyghurs are bilingual or trilingual. I can speak five languages. Is that because I am a genius? I am no genius. That’s because as children we were forced into an environment where we had to learn other languages to service. For a Uyghur, it's one thing when you go to the mainland without speaking Mandarin, and you can’t find a job. It’s another thing when you are in your homeland, your ability to speak Mandarin, or your level of Mandarin, like level 8, or level 10, determines whether you can find a job. Is that reasonable? This is Uyghur Autonomous Region, a name the Chinese government gave— Uyghur Autonomous Region, where Uyghurs should be the masters. But Uyghurs can’t find jobs in their own homeland. So they are forced to learn languages. And in school, for the Gaokao, you have to learn English. That’s forced, in the environment we grow up in. Uyghurs are not dumb. We are just on different starting lines from others. Our environment and facilities are different. But we were born the same as you are. The extra score that many people talk about, saying 50 points is a lot to add. But if, like me, in Beijing, as early as nursery and reception, we started learning ABC and some simple English. I didn’t take the TOEFL or IELTS to come (to the US), however, I wouldn’t starve to death, because that secondary school English you learned is enough for you to survive. But (not enough to survive) if you only started learning ABC from secondary school, or even not until sixth form. You take the university entry exam, the one that determines your life, the crucial exam in China, where you are given an extra 50 points. One subject’s full score is 150. You are given an extra 50 points in total. Spreading it out to that many subjects, it's not even an extra 10 points for each subject, right? So it is on that that I want to talk about “welfare”. Yes, we do have it, but it is not enough. The Uyghurs would rather have the same scoring system in the exam. I believe many Uyghurs think this way. I can’t represent them, but many Uyghurs definitely think “I’d rather we have the same scoring, but on condition that we have the same, fair opportunity for education, same condition for employment and life, etc.” Then with the same scoring, same exam papers, no one will complain. People complain, and people are not happy. Where there is oppression, there is resistance. It’s all because of too much pressure.
Host:
So that means the welfare the Chinese government gives, is just on paper?
Jewher Ilham:
Yes, and people particularly like to promote this. The Chinese government loves promoting the welfare it gives. They say at every opportunity that we’ve given this to Xinjiang and invested that in Xinjiang. When it comes to west-east gas transmission, why don’t you promote it as much? What about oil, cotton, natural gas, gold, etc, etc? When the natural resources are taken away, and the Uyghurs don’t get any tax income from it, why isn’t that promoted? But you are still promoting we invested this and that... This is not good, right? So actually, I think this behaviour of the Chinese government directly fuelled the ethnic division. Where does ethnic division come from? It comes from the discontentment with each other. And where does the discontentment come from? It comes from the feeling that you are getting something better than mine. The Han people feel that you Uyghurs are getting something better than mine. The Uyghurs feel you've taken everything from us and still feel that we are better off, that's just shameless. Many Uyghurs feel this way. Once there is discontentment, division appears. How do couples end up in divorce? Because they can’t agree, right? Each feels that I have done more than you. When you feel there are unequal efforts, you drive apart. It’s the same thing when it comes to the Uyghur issue. It’s because, including in the Uyghur region, Uyghurs see Han people benefit. Though the Han people in the Uyghur region very often don't benefit much, because those resources weren’t actually allocated to the local Han people. Apart from a bit more favorable working conditions, they don’t gain much from other infrastructures or economic activities. So the Han people are also disgruntled. And the Uyghurs feel it is because of you Han people that we end up like this. Locally, even though the Uyghur-Han relations haven’t deteriorated to the extent of the relations between the mainland and the Uyghur region, there is still a sense of division locally.
Host:
So we know that the Chinese government chose Uyghur regions to set up Bingtuan (Production and Construction Corps). I know Jewher you grew up in Beijing. I wanted to ask if you know how local Uyghurs living in those regions view such a policy.
Jewher Ilham:
How do locals see Xinjiang Bingtuan. I don’t know. I am no expert in this, but personally I think many people at the Bingtuan and their descendants are also victims. Because, firstly, back then from Hunan soldiers stationed there. They didn’t have wives, so female soldiers were transferred. They were told they could learn Russian, could do this and that, and could work as female accountants. So you can’t say they were deceived to be transferred. They were coaxed over, coaxed to Xinjiang at the time, to actually become wives for the soldiers, so that they would stay on so that they would settle down without regrets, have children, and be the next generation of Bingtuan. For women at the time, this was actually a very unfair, very discriminatory strategy for women. For those who stayed behind, did they genuinely wish to settle down? Not necessarily, right? Didn’t they want to go back to their hometowns? Certainly. So based on their circumstances, they are victims. They had to move to a place completely different from their home, where the cultures and traditions were foreign. So for them, they are victims. And the local Uyghurs, I believe are even greater victims. Because firstly, it diluted the population. It’s diluted. If you look at the figures from the 70s, the proportion of Uyghurs in the population in the region was about 75%, right? Over 80%. Now it’s only slightly over 40% Uyghurs. What kind of Uyghur Autonomous Region is this? And for other ethnic minorities, other Muslims, Turkic Muslims, their proportion is even lower—at maybe around 10% or even less. The proportion of Han people is very high. Many of them are descendants of the Xinjiang Bingtuan. Think about it, your homeland (is taken over) by outsiders, people of a different ethnicity, especially in nicer areas. You often hear many people say that South Xinjiang and North Xinjiang are very different. Where Han people gather tends to be in nicer areas, more prosperous areas, even during the time of Xinjiang Bingtuans. They were stationed in upstream areas of rivers, so as to control water. When you control water, you control the land. Because without water, however strong your army is, however good your resources are, people can’t survive. So the Xinjiang Bingtuans were very strategic. What’s clever about them is that they know how to control water. The locals were actually doing reasonably well at the beginning. I think in the 80s, during that time, many people weren't so (discontented). Many expressed their dissatisfaction, but I feel, thinking back now, this is the period many people now fondly remember. Many people expressed their dissatisfaction. Why is that? Because people felt safe to express dissatisfaction. People had the space to express discontent without worrying that if I voiced my dissatisfaction today, tomorrow or at 3 am, Guobao (national security police) would come knocking on my door. They didn’t need to worry. At that time, people could say what they wanted and express their demands. What about now? There is no freedom of expression whatsoever. Even the Han Chinese don’t have freedom of speech. We all acknowledge this. Unless the freedom you want to practice (exercise) is praising the Chinese government, then you have plenty of freedom. But if you have the slightest desire to criticize, or question—no need to go as far as criticizing—you have zero freedom or space. Towards the end of last year, we saw some different movements and struggles overseas and in China.
Host:
Jewher, how do you view the Han-centric sentiments in these movements?
Jewher Ilham:
Are you referring to the ones after the Urumqi fire? I didn’t participate, but I was following it. The reason I didn’t participate is that there was a sense of distrust of this new round of the movements. But there was a kind of uncertainty, how do you say “uncertainty” in Chinese? I don’t know. People were like…I don’t know, during the Black Lives Matter movement, if you saw a lot of those black profile pictures. Everyone changed their social media profile to the black squares. But many of them didn’t know what it meant; they were just following the trend, changing their profile pictures to black squares. I don't know if during the White Paper Movement, especially overseas, people did the same during the Black Lives Matter movement when I saw many overseas Chinese students follow suit, not really understanding the meaning. Everyone else is doing it, so I’ll do it too. It’s cool. I am open-minded. As if it’s some form of self-hypnosis. Or were people genuinely willing to understand the matter? Or was it because people felt, “This is impacting me, or this might impact me, so for myself, I need to speak up.” I wasn’t sure which one it was at the time, so I didn’t participate. But I kept an eye on it. I watched some videos and people’s tweets. I followed an Instagram account called @northern_square. I think it’s changing for the better. After keeping an eye on it, I feel it’s getting better. I recently started following Democracy Salon (Zephyr Society), and I noticed from communicating with you, and looking at the questions you asked, that there has been a lot of progress. I immediately felt there had been so much improvement. That’s why at the very beginning I didn’t want to comment, because I felt I didn’t want to waste my time, I didn’t want to argue, I didn’t want to lecture—it was that kind of feeling. But now I think there has been significant progress. Because for example, there was a question today on whether to call this region “Xinjiang”, and I think it is a big step forward. When I hear many Han people speak up, if I suggest, for example, that “when you speak up, we hope to be referred to as Uyghurs, not as people of Uyghur race, because the latter has a colonial connotation. Don't use the word Xinjiang, but Uyghur region,” they might say, “Hey, I am speaking up for you. You should be grateful. Why are you nitpicking?” That attitude, I feel, is very Han-centric. It’s a mindset of “I am speaking up for you because of pity. I’m better than you, so you should be grateful for my help.” Rather than saying “I am correcting my, the mistake that we’ve been making for a long time. I am willing to correct my mistake. I need to be humble. I want to humbly do the right thing.” I didn’t see these initially, but now I am feeling that gradually there have been changes. I am grateful for this. I think there was an App called “Clubhouse”. Many Uyghurs spoke up on Clubhouse without showing their faces. So people feel that without appearing in a video, without audio or image, they can speak Chinese better. Without audio and videos, people are more willing to speak up. I listened to it for the first time and went on it a few times after. At the beginning, I heard many Han people say “This is fake, blah blah”. They would say “Let’s not let this guy talk, let's get someone else on.” So they changed to a Han Chinese speak on Clubhouse, and talked about what they experienced. But I feel this focused more on Han voices and ignored Uyghur voices. I don’t think it is very advisable. Of course, everyone’s voice should be heard. But I think in terms of human rights, it’s the group that has been most oppressed, the voice of the vulnerable victim groups, that should be heard first. Because if you don’t know what they really experience, and what they really think, how do you know how to truly help them? And another point is, I think for the Uyghurs—I just mentioned that Uyghurs’ democracy and freedom are closely linked to Han’s democracy and freedom. I think Han people must speak up for themselves. I wholeheartedly support your efforts to move forward and continue this struggle without stopping. Because if even the Han people can’t fight for and secure their right to freedom and democracy, for Uyghurs, as third-class citizens in China, it will be much harder to achieve the same. We all know that even though Han people talk about being oppressed in China, like “harvesting chives”, and being the harvested chives. However, we are the more wilted chives, and you are the greener chives. You can at least “reproduce”, while we are too wilted to live—our land is being destroyed. That’s why
I am saying… Am I speaking off-topic again? I think it’s really important that you continue to speak up for yourselves. But don’t forget the other withered chives, because if we don't water each other, you might end up wilted like us. Just like that. If Uyghurs—look at Covid, and you’ll know. The Chinese government used the Uyghur region to test out the (Covid) green code. All these tracking apps have been tested out in the Uyghur region once or several times, as well as the checkpoints, barriers, quarantines, etc. They have all been tested out in the Uyghur region to see if they work before rolling them out. Many people, at the beginning of Covid, wanted to go back to China, saying it’s better at home. They didn’t want to stay in the US because the US didn’t care and people were dying. I heard that from many people. But later on, they still wanted to leave quickly, but they realized something wasn’t right. How come the Chinese government could build massive Fangcang hospitals in such a short amount of time and notice? Fangcang? How come they can quickly quarantine a lot of people, and quickly track each person? Why? Is the Chinese government a genius? How come, without previous Covid experience, the whole set of measures can be implemented so quickly? Because in the Uyghur region, in Tibet, these have already been tested. That’s what I mean when I talked about chives. Once we become wilted and destroyed, if you do nothing, you will too. Actually in the Uyghur region, when the concentration camps were first established, if back then they had been curbed, had not been implemented…
There were thousands of facilities of concentration camps, also called re-education centers, as the Chinese government calls them. If it had been stopped at the first few, during Covid, the Chinese government wouldn’t have been that successful at locking up within a short amount of time people who seemed to have the disease. Restraining people’s freedom wouldn’t have occurred so rapidly. I think this is important, showing we are closely linked. After all, we are oppressed by the same government. To different degrees, obviously. So I hope that Han people can recognize this—yes, we are both persecuted, we are both oppressed, but please be aware that the level of oppression for Uyghurs is completely different. Han people in deed have advantages in front of this Chinese government. For the same offense, as a Han person, you might be sentenced to just a year or so. For a Uyghur, it could be ten years or life. Or it’s not even even be considered an offense. You could be given a year as a warning. Or perhaps just 10 days as a caution. But for a Uyghur, it could be ten years or life. My father’s case is a good example. Has he ever used extreme or violent language or language of division? No. But because he spoke up for the Uyghurs, addressed their current situation, pointed out the Chinese government’s mistakes, and suggested improvements, the Chinese government sentenced him to life. But if a Han scholar said the same thing, he would just be cautioned, again and again, followed by some rewards like, “I’ll give you a professorship, if you stop talking”. If that doesn’t work, then okay, I’ll lock you up for a month or a year. My final question: in practical terms, is there anything concrete we can do to help improve the situation for the Uyghur people? There are many actions we can take. Do we have time? Firstly, I am working at the Worker Rights Consortium now. We are working on issues related to forced labor. All of us are consumers. All of us present here, whether you are rich or poor, we are all consumers. Whether you spent $10 or $10,000 this month, we are all consumers. That means every choice you make as a consumer, every inclination, may have a butterfly effect and may impact someone, some regime, some group. What do I mean by that? For example, when I shop now, it's not about boycotting China, but because in the Uyghur region, the forced labor issue is too prevalent. I can’t be sure if something made in China involves forced labor, so I dare not buy it, because I am worried that even if it is just one cent, I am spending it on contributing to the construction of a forced labor center, a re-education center, or a factory with forced labor. I don’t want my money, even one cent, (to go toward that). Because, like my cousin. There was a checkpoint at Artux, our hometown. She was shopping. She’s a nurse. When she was shopping, she was stopped at a checkpoint. There’s a checkpoint every few blocks. If you go to the Uyghur region you will see these checkpoints. They do all kinds of body searches there. She had to surrender her mobile phone. They found a photo of my father and two articles about him from Radio Free Asia. She was sentenced to 10 years just because of that. Many Uyghurs were arrested for these strange reasons. So I am worried that the shoes I buy, the clothes I buy, the earrings and the hairbands I buy could it have been made by my cousin. Could it have been made by my dad in prison? When we do our work, we interview a lot of victims and look into their situations and true experiences. We know they have gone through something severe, something unimaginable. Some have spoken about their experiences publicly, while others, until now, struggle to stand in front of a camera. They fear that their remaining family will be persecuted because of their speaking up. So I think, as consumers, the next time you go shopping, you could consider whether the things you’re buying could possibly be made through forced labor. The money I am spending, whether it’s 10 dollars, 20, or 1000, could be contributing to the Chinese government’s continuation of these atrocities. I hope you’ll take a moment to reflect on this. There are some tools I can recommend to you. Do you all have a mobile phone? You can type www.enduyghurforcedlabour.org.You can see there is a page specifically on the brands that are directly linked to forced labor, particularly Uyghur forced labor incidents. You can, you know, when you spend, you can identify which brands might not be entirely safe, might not be that ethical, or moral. There is another website, look up the Jewish World Watch Database. If you check this database, you can type in any brand, usually larger companies. If you type in the brand, it will tell you whether this brand is linked to Uyghur forced labor. So when you want to make a purchase or shop online, you can have a look and do a search on these websites that I highly recommend. Apart from consumer actions, as I mentioned earlier, pay attention to the voices of Uyghurs, and other victimized groups, whether they are Tibetans, Mongolians, Tatars, Tajiks, Kazakhs, Uzbeks, Hui people, or others. You can listen more to their voices, ask them questions, and don’t worry about offending them. As long as you express your sincerity, as long as you genuinely want to learn and help, people will appreciate it in the right state of mind. How do you say people with the right mind in Chinese? People will not think of your act as offensive. People will be willing to answer your questions, as long as you ask sincerely. Many Han people I meet would say…For example, I was giving a speech in a school. One of the students, who was Chinese, said “The Chinese government says the mosques are still open, so why do Uyghurs claim they are not allowed to worship there?” I explained that the mosques are indeed open, but only certain Uyghurs are hired to go in and pretend to pray. Real, normal people cannot freely go in to pray. Additionally, in mosques, there are rules, such as not showing bare skin, which is a basic rule of respect. You also need to wear a head covering, regardless of whether or not you are (Muslim). It’s a basic rule of showing respect. But if you watch a lot of the videos released by the Chinese government, in their propaganda videos, you see girls in shorts and camisoles entering, taking videos and selfies, playing music, and dancing. In a mosque, you can't play music or engage in such activities. It is a very sacred, very holy place. Just imagine, if you go to a temple and start singing “Mice Love Rice”, wouldn’t that be inappropriate? No. The same principle applies. You are in the mosque. It is Ramadan. People start drinking and eating meat. None of these is allowed. Firstly, for Muslims, it is generally against the doctrines to drink alcohol. People practice religion on different levels. However, forcing someone to drink, especially during Ramadan, this sacred month, and forcing people to eat pork, drink alcohol, go into a mosque to perform Uyghur dance in belly dance clothes, and play loud music singing about how pretty Xinjiang girls are, is truly offensive. People who don’t understand Uyghur culture might think, “Look how pretty Xinjiang girls are, how big their smiles are when dancing, and how well they are living.” I often get asked these questions. But if you have a bit of knowledge about Uyghur culture, just a bit of knowledge about it, you'd realize that this propaganda, these means of propaganda, are so fake that it can’t be fake anymore. It exposes significant issues in this region. The Chinese government deliberately stages and portrays a sort of prosperous scene. But the reality is far from it.
Host:
Thank you Jewher. You mentioned earlier that you wanted to read a passage about your father.
Jewher Ilham:
Yes, indeed. My father’s friend Mr. Huang Zhangjin once wrote an article about my father, titled “Goodbye Ilham”. It was written after my father’s arrest. But it’s a very long article. I can’t read the entire article as it would take 15 minutes. I read an excerpt, so you can get a good understanding of what kind of person my father was, and gain insights into, at least up until 2012 or 2013, back then, the situation of Uyghurs. You’d have a sneak peek and get a bit of information. At that time, the situation was already much better than it is now. Perhaps, now it is dozens of times more severe. Let me look it up. I will just read a portion which should take about 5 minutes. The author of this article, Mr Huang Zhangjin, is a descendant of Bingtuan. Xinjiang Bingtuan. But he is a very close friend of my father. I will start now.
“He knew I grew up in Bingtuan, and he didn’t try to downplay the hostility that a Uyghur holds towards Bingtuan people. He even deliberately played up that hostility in front of me, perhaps because of how emotionless I seemed. I simply didn’t have the same passion and warmth that he did. In our conversations, I’d played the role of the ignorant Han-chauvinist, the CCP leadership, the Xinjiang government, the Hunan person who spilled Uyghur blood, the Shandong person who hogged construction contracts in Xinjiang, the state-owned, monopolistic firm that exploited Uyghurs and Han in Xinjiang… Perhaps I represented China better than anyone else could. He was telling me details that I didn’t know before. He was pouring out what he had held back for many years. And I was listening and receiving knowledge about the other side of the Great Wall. This is Han…”
I have to pause here. In his article, when he says “Khitay”, it means Han people in Chinese. A Khitay was listening to a chantou. “Chantou” is how many Han refer to the Uyghur. Listening to a chantou. A chantou was educating a Khitay. Here it is quoting my father:
“Of course, your Han people are the big brother. The big brother says, “I don’t have enough space to live. Little brother, why don’t you give me some space?” So the best lands went to Bingtuan. Water was diverted your way too. You say, “The country needs development. Those big brothers to the east need their little brother to provide the raw materials. Could you sacrifice temporarily?” Sure. Crude oil, coal, gas, cotton… Take them all. We don’t ask you to leave much tax money to our Uyghur and Han in Xinjiang, but can you please stop saying how much money the country is setting aside to feed us every year? That doesn’t sound nice, does it? Look at those ultranationalist Han people on the internet, so stupid. They complain about how foreign capital is exploiting China, where in fact we should all be thankful. How many jobs have been created? How many peasants are being trained to be professional workers compatible with modern business? If not for factory owners from Taiwan and Hong Kong, how would mainlanders know how to manage big, modern enterprises? Without the examples of foreign firms, how can mainlanders learn to copy them? We should all be thankful! Regrettably, we Uyghurs are thankful people, but no one has given us the opportunity to show our gratitude. And those poor old Han people in Xinjiang too. You see, we have everything in Xinjiang. Everything but opportunities for the locals. Let me make a bad analogy: the Han are the ruling group, the colonizers. We welcome you in Xinjiang. Liu Xiaobo was right when he said that China needed to be colonized for 300 years. There hasn’t been a single backward person in the world whose modernization wasn’t brought on by Western colonizers. But look at your Han people. For those high-end industries, we don’t have the technology, experience, or capital to compete. Alright then, you do it. But for the simple manufacturing jobs, you should simply open a factory and let us be the workers. We can do the low-end jobs. We can learn while being exploited. Look at those Western colonizers. They’ve always brought with them their advanced systems, cultures, and productivity. They sat at the top— a Britian would never go to India and compete with the locals for hard-labor jobs. But what advanced system or culture did you Han people bring? We are fine with you taking the high-end jobs. But do you really have to take all the coolie labor too? Are there any other ruling groups in this world that are so petty? I’m worried for you! This is my dad’s way of using humor to talk about the situation of the Uyghurs. Am I wrong? Big Brothers are drilling, mining, building roads, and doing construction everywhere. You say, ‘The crude oil, gas, and coal all belong to the state. They don’t belong to Xinjiang.’ Fine. It’s the same in inland provinces anyway. But people are living on their ancestral lands. Then PetroChina and Sinopec come along and say, ‘Sorry, there are state-owned resources beneath your land, please move along.’ And move we did. Alright, at least you still need laborers, right? We little brothers don’t have jobs. How about giving us some jobs so we can feed our family? Nope. Not even the coolie jobs. Just look at those job postings in Xinjiang and see how many of them say ‘Han only.’ When your Bingtuan people could no longer stand the exploitation, you ignored your Uyghur brothers and went to inland provinces to find migrant workers. You offer them thousands of yuan to settle in Xinjiang. You offer them housing and furniture. Sometimes you Han people are just too brazen. You said I was good at languages. I had no choice. I started learning Mandarin when I was 17. I poured my life into it. And if I could learn a language as difficult as Mandarin, other languages like Japanese and Korean are much easier because they are Altaic languages similar to Uyghur grammatically. We Uyghurs have to be good at languages. Look at those Uyghur college graduates who couldn’t find jobs and had to do business in central Asia, or become tour guides. They have to learn foreign languages. And our best students would go on to study in the West and never come back. Why would many Uyghurs want independence? It’s very simple. They have to learn Mandarin to get a job in their own hometown. Even jobs like digging sand at a construction site, sweeping the streets, or working as a security guard require Mandarin. And even if you do speak Mandarin, there’s no guarantee you’ll get the job. Do you Han people have to know English to work in a factory or as a porter? When Uyghurs look for jobs in other provinces, you can of course reject them for not speaking Mandarin. But Xinjiang is the Uyghur Autonomous Region. It’s protected by the Constitution and the Law on Regional National Autonomy. If white Americans fire black Americans for the color of their skin, black people can sue. But when Uyghurs go to court, they get turned away. If you dare to speak up online, they lock you up for inciting separatism. Who is suffering other than Uyghurs? The local Han people! They can’t mess with Uyghurs. They are exploited too. They aren’t getting their slice in Xinjiang. But what now? Uyghurs hate them. They took away our livelihoods. You Han people are taking advantage of us. How are we supposed to tell you apart? This part talks about the deprivation of resources, which is something I mentioned earlier. For me, after coming to the US, I read many of my father’s articles and I began to learn more about my hometown, its ethnic issues at that time, and various economic and developmental challenges. I’d like to read a brief excerpt on the topic of my father’s stance on independence. There is a shorter paragraph. I asked Ilham many times whether he had thought about independence. Only one time did he give it real thought and painfully murmur, “Who hasn’t fantasized about living in independence, in a perfect country, where one can breathe freely?” He sighed before continuing, “But as an intellectual responsible for his own people, one who respects history and reality, I have to have both national self-respect and realistic rationality. Independence must never be pursued.” Many times he even asked and answered himself, “Han people worry about China suffering the same fate as the Soviet Union and Yugoslavia. But have you considered that Uyghurs also worry about the same thing? Many Uyghur folks are happy if they can feed themselves if they can live a better life. If after a bloody war, the Han people say, ‘Alright, you can have your independence.’ What do Uyghurs get? After that, our future generations are just supposed to live next door to an enemy that is 1.3 billion strong? Let’s say that Han people are like the Swedes, and we part ways peacefully—in Xinjiang, a huge place with such a long border, is it a good idea to let a Han army help us defend it? Do we really want to build our own system after independence, and put such a heavy burden on the ordinary people? Some people may imagine that Americans would come to Xinjiang after independence. If that were to happen, we would become doubly hated hostages.” Ilham insisted that Uyghur’s pursuit of equality and freedom must not be separated from the Han people’s advancement of freedom and democracy. The two must be closely integrated. The situation of the Uyghurs was a result of the lack of democracy and freedom in China as a whole. Uyghurs can gain freedom and democracy only if Han people can also achieve them.”
This one is about my father’s perspective back then –about 10 years ago, particularly his views on independence. Well, I’ve read it several times, and I haven’t discerned even a hint of a separationist tendency toward independence. I didn’t see it. I don’t know how the Chinese government interpreted it. I don’t know where the Chinese government fabricated it from. After all these years, I feel that if my father were to witness what’s happening now, whether he could still maintain the same thoughts, I don’t know, and no one can know. I think it’s hard to assert that this idea could remain unchanged throughout the ages; I find it hard to say. But 10 years ago, what I am sure of is that my father has never spoken publicly or written anything that incited violence, independence, or the subversion of the regime. So, the Chinese government’s accusation against my father lacks any legal basis or factual evidence. I believe these two points were important when I read “Goodbye Ilham” at the time. I think it is essential for Han Chinese to read it.
Because many people, after watching CCTV, believed “Xinjiang scholar sentenced to life for inciting violence.” They believed it without looking into it. They saw something about his remarks criticizing the Chinese government, and they thought criticizing meant inciting subversion. But why? Don’t you know, just like in Chinese culture, fathers show tough love, right? They point out your mistakes so that you can become better. It’s an expression of love. It’s good for you. From when we were young, well, not exactly from childhood, but around secondary and primary school, there were listening devices in our house. We would be tracked everywhere. Very often police often came over to our house to eat and sleep. Sometimes when journalists interviewed us at home, or when guests visited, my father, in the midst of speaking, especially when speaking passionately, would suddenly stop or say, “Listen if you want. I am saying these things for you to hear anyway.” You should’ve known his views. But now the Chinese government is indeed using it (as an excuse). I don’t believe they truly think my father incited violence or subversion. I don’t think the Chinese government is that stupid. In such a large country, surely there are talented people who recognize that my father is not (a separationist). It doesn’t, it doesn’t need to be a genius to figure that out. You don’t need to be a genius. You just need to do your homework, to truly listen to my father’s words, to his voice. This is what I’d like you to do: listen to what people are saying, our voices, our experiences, our demands, and to communicate with each other. That’s my father’s ultimate wish, to serve as a bridge of communication. Bias comes from a misunderstanding of each other. What is bias? You are seeing others but not as complete individuals, which leads you to think those people have negative impacts, bad views, etc. It stems from a lack of communication, recognition, and understanding. So I hope people can do more investigations and research. Avoid blind belief. Don’t unquestioningly trust Uyghur voices, nor Han voices. Do your homework, listen more, and read more. Reading the news won’t harm us. Don’t limit yourself to just left-wing or right-wing sources. It doesn’t hurt to read widely. Every person’s approach to investigation is unique. If you can hear voices from different angles, and see stories from different perspectives, you can have a more comprehensive understanding. I just hope people can be more open-minded, and expand their perspective, not just support Uyghurs for the sake of opposing the communist regime. Support the Uyghurs because you genuinely want to, this is crucial. I appreciate and am grateful, that many people are now slowly get involved in activities to support Uyghurs, Kazakhs, and Tibetans. However, many of them are doing this out of anti-communist sentiments. You don’t have to be anti-communist to support the Uyghurs. Supporting the Uyghurs doesn’t imply opposition to the communist party or disloyalty to China; it doesn't mean you are unpatriotic. Many people think (you are not patriotic) if you support the Uyghurs, but I’m patriotic. This need not be a conflict. (Supporting Uyghurs and being patriotic) are not contradictory; they can coexist. You can love your country, love your party, and you can help make it better, right? I think we can all agree on respecting human rights and the equality of all people. This is a right we should all enjoy, no matter who we are. I think any normal person can agree to this. So, if the Chinese government is not doing that, we can, just like a good parent teaching their children, educate our country, and educate our government, right? Many worry that participating in these activities means I am not patriotic, I am no longer a “little pink” (a young Chinese cyber-nationalist), I am not a good baby or a nice little flower for my country. I don’t think there needs to be conflict here. You can love your country, but point out wrongdoings and give opinions. Having a disagreement doesn’t mean having conflict doesn’t mean you are against it. It’s not a conflict. You can raise a different opinion. But it doesn’t mean you are opposing this country, or you hate this country. Having differences doesn’t mean hatred.
Host:
Thank you Jewher for sharing so much with us.
Audience:
I would like to say thank you to Jewher first. I am Örkesh. Indeed, I find your dad too conservative. During Tiananmen—I think Fengsuo can testify to this, I was generally seen as the relatively moderate one among the Tiananmen organizers. Although I was at the forefront during each protest, my positions were generally seen as moderate. Professor Ilham is much more moderate than me. Generally, on matters such as independence, I am much more radical than him. Such a moderate person was sentenced to life by the CCP. Let me not talk about politics for now. When I heard today that you are getting married and your dad cannot give you his blessings, as an elder, I give you my blessings. I believe this is the blessing everyone here wants to give you. After listening today, I am grateful that the Democracy Salon (now Zephyr Society 热风) provides an opportunity for people abroad to think. The Uyghur topic is often something people are reluctant to contemplate because honestly, it’s a painful thought process. First, we have to face the education we received over the past few decades. I think you are probably all in your twenties. You’ve received education on the ideology of unity, the need for division of power and opposition, etc. You know you will face such considerations after going abroad, but this process of thinking is indeed quite painful. However, after listening to Jewher today, at least regarding the views I have for decades, after listening today, I have a notion that I want to ask all of you: the Chinese government is “xia zuo” (despicable). I don’t know if you agree with using this word. Is it an accurate description? If, after listening, you think that indeed, the Chinese government is despicable. Then I have another question for you: Did you previously think the Chinese government was despicable? If not, after today’s talk, reflect on whether you should feel a bit embarrassed about not recognizing the Chinese government as despicable before. Being embarrassed is an essential part of growth. So after listening to her talk today, I find Jewher’s speech to be brilliant. It’s brilliant because it stepped back ten thousand steps. I often say that when giving a speech, if I step back ten thousand steps and I can still convince you, that’s impressive. The right of Uyghurs to pursue independence is perfectly justified. The Uyghurs pursue independence to defend Uyghurs’ freedom and dignity and protect all aspects of our culture. So if we consider the Québécois in Canada, the Québécois’ pursuit of freedom and independence is right and proper, if it is right and proper for the Québécois in a democratic country like Canada, if the Scottish demand for independence in a democratic UK is justified, it should be considered right and proper for the Uyghurs to pursue independence in a non-democratic China. It was the case before, and it is the case today. Professor Ilham decided to be a so-called responsible intellectual, that “being responsible”, from what we heard, means considering reality. What is the reality? It is that the CCP won’t give the freedom to you. It won’t give it to you. Right or wrong, at least today, here in the US, we have to consider this matter. If you were in China, okay, you might use the argument “The CCP won’t give you independence, so you shouldn’t pursue it.” I can at least understand why you are saying that. At least it has an underlying meaning—I am worried about your safety. If you demand independence, you will be suppressed. In order for you not to be attacked, I hope you do not demand independence. It seems to work logically—just about working. I often see on Twitter when it comes to the Taiwan issue, when talking about the attack on Taiwan, many people advise “Do not demand independence. Taiwan should not demand this. You know clearly how strong the CCP is. It will attack you. Asking for independence is not good for you.” I always give an example to illustrate my point: if there is a bully in your village
who has his eyes on someone’s daughter. Would you want to be the person to approach the father and suggest, “This bully is formidable. Just give him your daughter. Isn’t it disheartening to hear someone say this? If so, the same sentiment applies to the Uyghurs and Taiwan, facing such circumstances. So I encourage everyone after listening to Jewher today, after hearing the stance of the Uyghurs, to reflect on our past thoughts on certain issues, and think about the kind of stance you want to adopt. My stance is that I want to stand in a position rooted in fairness and justice. Professor Ilham opts for a position that involves stepping back 10,000 steps, to understand the reality and the perspective of the majority of Han people brainwashed with the notion of the Great Unification. He was sentenced to life imprisonment. If you can reflect after listening today. I would like to take a step beyond and supplement Jewher’s talk. There are a few points she raised that I’d like to elaborate on. The term “Xinjiang” did not first emerge in 1934. It dates back to 1882. That’s 50 years earlier. Is 50 years a lot? In 1882, the term “Xinjiang” was introduced. The Qing Dynasty established Xinjiang Province. In 1880s, Xinjiang wasn’t…compared with…Xinjiang province was established in 1892. In 1882, the Junggar rebellion was suppressed. In 1992 it was still referred to as the Western Regions General’s Office. However, the province was established in 1892 or 1893—there is controversy, the province was established around the same time as Taiwan. Then when establishing provinces, precisely during the Qing dynasty it was named Xinjiang province. That’s when the term Xinjiang appeared. Wow, this adds up to more than 150 years when you do the math. Is it very old? Who is still talking about…I actually don’t mind using the term Xinjiang. Because, isn’t it indisputable evidence that Xinjiang has NOT been part of China since ancient times? This is evidence. Of course, Uyghurs may not like it, as Jewher explained very clearly. My position today is definitely more progressive than Jewher’s. You can then see how gentle a person she is, and how gentle her dad is. In front of a Uyghur person in Xinjiang, I would advise you not to use the term Xinjiang, but rather East Turkestan. Uyghurs would appreciate that. We are currently an oppressed people, oppressed by the Han ethnic group, by the Chinese Communist Party mainly, but also by the Han. You might say, "I haven't oppressed anyone." That is right, but, for example, Han people in Xinjiang may naturally align themselves with the government, so for the Uyghurs, how can they view the Han? How can they tell you apart? So when we say today that we are oppressed by the CCP, and also by the Han people, this statement is not wrong. If this statement is not wrong, as a member of the Han people, if you say it has nothing to do with you, it’s not related to you…I believe that people who come to the Democracy Salon (now Zephyr Society) probably don’t think like that. If you feel you are different from the Han people I described, I suggest using the term “East Turkestan”.
Audience:
Hello. I am someone who really likes Xinjiang culture. I have been to Xinjiang twice, once to the North in Kanas, and once to the South as far as Kuqa County. I think what you’ve just said is great. From what I saw in Xinjiang, it was all true. Let me give you a small example. When I went to North Xinjiang in 2020, there was a small county called Fuhai County, a small town to the south of Kanas. It’s actually not an area where a lot of Uyghurs live. There are more people of other ethnic minority groups. There are more Uyghurs in South Xinjiang. In that town, I was having dinner with a local friend and I saw a waiter who looked obviously Uyghur—high nose bridge, and deep big eyes. I asked my local friend to speak to the waiter, as he can speak Uyghur. The waiter was very young—a young boy. I asked my friend to ask him why he would come to be a waiter in such a faraway place. He told me his home is in South Xinjiang, in a small county near Kashgar. His family, his whole family were put in prison, or maybe in a re-education camp. Because he was a minor, not an adult yet, the government, in an effort to relocate him, sent him all the way from South Xinjiang to Fuhai County in North Xinjiang. They arranged for him to work at a restaurant there. Since he was still underage then. he was essentially compelled by the government to North Xinjiang, to a distant small town, to be a waiter. It constitutes what could be considered child labor. I was shocked at that moment, you know. Previously in the mainland, we rarely came across things about the Uyghur people in Xinjiang, their harsh labor conditions, the oppression, and the arbitrary detentions. We would never see things like these through the media in mainland China. Occasionally, we might hear sporadic reports from overseas media, like Western media. However, we still haven’t seen very substantial evidence, such as the number of people each year forced into labor, the type of work, and where it takes place.
Audience
So my question for Jewher is, now that you are working and researching in this area, could you talk in detail about some of the evidence that you have personally come across or know of, evidence that can convince everyone that forced labor is indeed occurring in Xinjiang, and that it is not a lie, fabricated by the Western media to defame the Chinese government. Can you share your understanding of this?
Jewher
Thank you. Firstly, let’s not discuss evidence from Western media, but rather the evidence provided by the Chinese government itself. If you search online, you can see the White Paper released by the State Council. It was published in 2020 or 2021. I think it was in 2021. The Chinese government stated that in Xinjiang, each year, annually, not in total, a total of 1.29 million people each year were sent to vocational training. Vocational re-education. It is compulsory. Now, on the Uyghur population, according to the Chinese government, the Uyghur population is around 12 million, usually between 11 and 12 million. So if we look at the evidence provided by the Chinese government itself, assuming these data are right, it indicates that… Also, there are generally no Han people receiving this vocational training. It’s typically the Uyghurs, Kazakhs, and local minorities, the so-called “ethnic minorities”. They should have been the majority in Xinjiang. So if these data are correct, over 10% of the population aged between 14 to 79, could be 76, I don’t remember the exact age, but it’s age 70 and up. they have to attend this vocational training, a 2-year program. It’s compulsory. You can’t go home and you can’t leave. Some areas are a bit more relaxed; you can go back once a month. Some allow families to send clothes and food to you. Whatever the purpose— any school or anything, if it is compulsory, it interferes with your freedom, doesn’t it? Violating human rights. It’s vocational training. So, what happens inside? People are learning various skills, from make-up and textile to car mechanics and other jobs. These are poverty relief policies, according to the Chinese government. But many Uyghurs, many overseas Uyghurs, and those in China have shared photos and missing persons notices. You see that many people sent to training centers already have jobs. Think about it, 10% of the population! These individuals could be dentists, teachers, football players, or even singers. They all have their own occupations, but they are sent to this so-called vocational training program. On completing this program, they are forced to work, not in their original positions and professions, but in the roles designated by the training. Isn’t this a form of forced labor? So this is based on the data provided by the Chinese government. We are not considering other sources at the moment. Secondly, if you examine satellite images, you'll notice that many once ordinary schools have been expanded. From the photos you can see once they are expanded, factories have been set up nearby. Including factories like Coca-Cola, and Volkswagen, many are established near concentration camps, within one mile. You can see around these concentration camp prisons, there are numerous factories. If you search online, websites like Qichacha and Aiqicha specialize in searching for company information. You can find these Chinese websites on Baidu. You can see their addresses. Upon searching you’ll discover that these factories are all situated next to prisons and camps— not a few bus stops away; it’s right next to it. You can see them through satellite imagery. There are also experts who utilize satellite images (to capture more detailed photos). They’ve even captured images of prisoners in uniforms, or students in the concentration camps, wearing their uniforms, forming queues, going from prisons to the factories handcuffed. These images were taken from a distance. Hence these serve as one piece of evidence. Of course, you cannot take photos of the inside of the factories, right? Because inside, there are prison guards who would not take any photos, right? Even if they did, they wouldn’t share them. As for the actual laborers forced to work there, they wouldn’t have access to phones, right? If you want to see pictures from inside prisons, it's challenging, even in the US, a more open society. You might see some from films. If you attempt to post pictures from inside certain prisons, it's not an easy thing. Let alone in a country like China with high surveillance, a country with intense surveillance and monitoring. But through satellite imagery, you can see thousands of individuals lined up in orange uniforms. They wear orange or blue clothes, handcuffed, moving towards the factories. If you zoom in, zoom in significantly, you can see these details. That’s why when these images were published, after a year or several months, modifications were Observed on the satellite imagery. How? The passageways were covered, concealing the view of people in orange attire walking below. You can see a passageway linking this prison and that factory. Previously people walked this way, but later they covered it up, on the top with a roof. It’s a narrow passageway. You can find information about it online. On Buzzfeed, you can see it. Wall Street Journal also covered this in their report. Another one is the audit. So any company in the west…I don't know what the rule is in China, I am not sure. But overseas, any company, whether in textile or any sector, needs to be audited. I don’t know what the rules are in China. So, if your factory is in China, but the company is a Western one, you need auditors from here, to go there for unannounced visits. You can’t say in advance that “I am going to this place for audit on July 8.” You can’t tell in advance. You need to visit unexpectedly because you can’t let the head of staff or the factory’s manager know you are coming, otherwise, what's the point? They can pretend. I attended primary school in China. If inspectors were scheduled to visit next week, the entire school began cleaning, with teachers donning suits, and blackboards wiped meticulously clean, right? Even in primary schools, it was like this, just imagine, let alone these factories. But when Western auditors went to the Uyghur region, they were arrested, because they were not Chinese; they were foreigners. They got arrested upon arrival there. They were not allowed to visit; they were not allowed to go to factories. As a result, most audit companies refuse to conduct audits in the Uyghur region. Many Western companies cannot issue certificates. We often see those ethical, sustainable type certificates. But companies cannot issue them, because they simply cannot operate there. If the Chinese government truly isn’t engaging in forced labor, why stand in the way of the auditors? The auditors are just there to check, for example, whether there are fire exits in the factory, whether there are emergency escape routes, whether employees have ergonomic chairs—how do you say that in Chinese? Ergonomic chairs. Or do they simply squat to work and make things? What is their working condition, working condition like? They need to inspect, for they have an IOO, a set of rules. However, the auditors were unable to carry out these checks. If the Chinese government didn’t have anything to hide if they really have nothing to hide, why not allow open access? They are only allowing announced visits, with predetermined routes arranged by them, accompanied by officials, and limited to specific hotels designated for foreigners. You can’t live in local people’s homes, so you can’t stay at guest houses. Moreover, you cannot interact with people on the street for interviews. You can’t do that. They will stop you. You will get stopped. So for the due diligence—how do you say due diligence in Chinese? The whole point of due diligence is to, without any restrictions or disruptions, interview local people. If you can’t even guarantee this most basic point, how do you ensure that labor rights are genuinely protected? I hope I have addressed your question.
Audience
I would like to ask, because we are in the US, so the context for speaking up is the US and the West. In this context, how do you, when you speak up for the Uyghurs, navigate the inherent contradictions in the Western world and their complicity in Xinjiang issues? For example, initially after 9/11, the Islamic Movement in East Turkestan was, in fact, defined as a terrorist group by both the US and the UN, together with the Chinese government. Also, including the US, after 9/11, the world was (taking action) against Islamic culture and Islam in the name of anti-terrorism. When China began creating those re-education camps, at the time, the World Bank and the UN gave support and funding. So in fact, the Western world itself has many internal contradictions. I am curious when you speak up here, how do you navigate these nuances?
Jewher
First of all, I think one thing that the US does relatively well is that its distinctions are clear. Well, for me, at the moment, when I appeal to different officials from various governments to address this issue, no one would say: because you are Muslim, it might be linked to a terrorist event. No. I have never encountered such a problem. Regarding the Eastern Turkistan Islamic organization you just mentioned, I don’t know much about it. But I’ve heard that it does not actually exist. No one knows who leads it, or who is involved. I don’t know if you, Uncle Örkesh, know it, but from what I’ve heard, it simply doesn’t exist. It no longer exists anymore. At least if it does, it has no substantial influence. Right. We don’t know where they are, or what they do. There is no such thing. No such thing. And now, according to the US government, and the UN, they are unrecognizable. They also said that, because no one knows who they are, no one knows what they are doing. No one knows. It’s just an organization that has no meaningful existence. So at the moment, one thing I recognize is that in the West, some officials support the Uyghurs with political agendas, definitely. It’s not purely for human rights reasons. But for the Uyghurs in this situation, we don't care about your political intentions, as long as you can help us, right? Many Uyghurs feel this way because there are already too few people speaking up for us. Your political intentions are not important to us; that’s your own matter. Our intention is to liberate these Uyghurs in detention so they can be reunited with their families. In the past 9 years—I don’t know if you have noticed—I strive to remain neutral. When I speak, I speak about information, information I’ve learned. I am not asking you to take action. As Uncle Örkesh mentioned earlier, whether it’s East Turkestan or the Uyghur region, I am not asking you to adopt a political viewpoint. I don’t want to express a political stance or politicize this issue. I want to provide you with this information and let you make a choice. I hope you will make the right choice. I don’t want to brainwash anyone or say anything to force you, or guilt trap you. I just want to provide the information here. I believe people with a conscience will make the right choice. That’s how I see it. I am still hopeful, optimistic and positive about human nature. I am my Dad’s daughter, so. I try not to (ask people to do things). I really want to, but I restrain myself. I want to be a source of information for you. I’ll tell you what I know, how I think, how others think, what the US government might be thinking, and what the Chinese government might be thinking. I speak and I give this information. I may not be right, so to do the real critical thinking, it’s up to you. When I talk to US government officials, European officials, or Canadian officials, when I interact with them, I try to do the same thing. I do not politicize this issue. I see it purely as a human rights problem. Because the Chinese government really wants to
make this matter about religion, framing it religiously and politically, it is fundamentally a big human rights issue. This is linked to the geographical location of the Uyghur region, and its resources advantages. These factors are closely linked to what’s happening to the Uyghurs now, not just religious reasons. Many Uyghurs are actually secular, yet they are targeted all the same. So this really indicates that this is not solely a religious issue. Otherwise, only those who practice religious rituals and wear head coverings would be detained. Why would people without clear religious features be arrested? Right? So for me, I stick to my principles and try to handle this completely as non-political information. It’s hard. Very hard. I swear it’s really hard. But I will try my best to deal with the matter as a human rights issue because it is. It is a matter of human rights, humanity, and morality. I will bring up the religious aspects or political tendencies and provide this information to them. I say this is what I know, but ultimately, it is a human rights issue. The solution should be through a human rights route, not as a political issue. I don’t care what your political intentions are, as long as your approach and outcome are focused on solving human rights issues. I hope that answered your question.
Audience
Thank you for your sharing. I am a Hong Konger, so my question… I completely agree with your father’s words, as you read it, that the Uyghurs and Han are tied together in the course of the political development of China. Their fates are tied together. So my question is, in your opinion, China as a government, in its movement seeking political reform, what role do the Uyghurs play? In comparison with the kind of involvement in Örkesh’s time. What do you think?
Jewher
I think there is a big (difference). I think the Uyghurs would play a rather ground-breaking role because we have a strong national character. We the Uyghurs are too different. As I just mentioned, and you just mentioned, the Uyghur and the Han, their routes to democracy and freedom are closely linked together. If the Uyghurs…If the Han cannot get their democracy and freedom, it would be hard for the Uyghurs to get it. But if the Uyghurs can get democracy and freedom, I believe the Han can get what they ask for. I think there is a direct link. So if we can do it together, with the kind of national character the Uyghurs have, a very strong one in comparison with the other 56 ethnic groups of China. Relatively speaking, the Uyghurs have the strongest national trait. They have such a strong national character. China usually likes unification and integration. Everyone is the same. Everyone thinks and does the same. Right? If in this context, we can get, you know, what we deserve, like the rights we demand, the right we deserve, we can provide for the entire nation in China, a very clear definition of the big blueprint. Thank you! My Chinese… I am one who has taken the university entry exam. But I’ve forgotten too much. Trust me, my Chinese was way better.
Audience
I want to ask about cotton. Because the US… About what? Cotton. Yes. Because in Xinjiang, well, in the Uyghur region, there’s a lot of cotton growing. Previously, many people used to go to Xinjiang to work. It was mainly migrant workers picking up cotton. But it seems like there wasn’t any this year. It seems forced labor was involved. I don’t know how likely this is. I don’t know how much you know about this, because, according to the Chinese government’s narrative, the picking was done by machines. But I know it is not true. It’s impossible to use machines for all of it. A lot of it is delicate and has to be done by hand, or it will break. So technically, if you use hands, it’s more…..Do you know roughly how many people would?
Jewher
I can’t say I know how many people. It’s different each year, each time, and in each region. It’s difficult to (calculate). And we are not there, so it’s hard to say. But what I want to say is that Uyghur people, the Uyghurs in the region, most of them, from a young age, would… You all had school trips, right? You would normally go to the Great Wall, Juyong Guan, and some parks or gardens for your school trip. What did the Uyghur kids do (on their school trip)? They went to pick cotton. If you didn’t go, you would get fined. And then when you grow up, if it’s not a school trip, it’s usually… Your parents—you often hear Uyghur people saying that their parents are too old to do that labor work. The parents are unable to, So they would go instead of their elderly parents to pick cotton. If you don’t pick enough, you will be fined. Of course, you can’t specify how many people. It’s different in each city, each county. The regulations and rules are different. So I can’t say. But 84% of China’s cotton comes from the Uyghur region. That constitutes 22% of the world’s total cotton production. Many of us focus only on cotton. But cotton is just one of them. I don’t know if it is solid wood, but things like polyvinyl. It is used for flooring, not wood flooring, but they look like wood. Nowadays, it is commonly used in interior decoration, including ceilings and walls. 10% of polyvinyl on the global scale is imported from the Uyghur region. Other items include tomatoes, cameras, and various tech stuff, like mobile phones and polysilicon. I read about it. So what is polysilicon used for? It’s used for solar power. Well, in case someone doesn’t. I don’t want to leave them out, you know. So 45% of the polysilicon in the world which is the primary material for solar panels, is imported from the Uyghur region. The Chinese government claims it involves machinery. It’s not true, because it is delicate. It’s a very delicate and fragile material. You have to do it by hand. So the Chinese government lied about it. They lied. You need people to handle and operate these processes. Moreover, there are many other items, including nuts, like dates, also walnuts, and badam. Also the food packing industry. I know of a (camp) survivor who worked to package food in the food packaging industry. The current bill, the bill banning Uyghur forced labor, Uyghur Forced Labor Prevention Act. This Act prohibits anything made from the Uyghur region from being imported into the United States…exported to the US. Because many industries are at risk. But how do you perceive its enforcement? It seems the enforcing (enforcement) is not optimal. How should I put it? You can’t say it’s flawless because, after all, it’s an unprecedented act. Moreover, it operates on a large scale, as each year, the volume of exports is substantial. From last year until now, it seems to be around 40,000; I don’t remember the precise number. However, over 5000 packages have been targeted. I forgot the specific number. All I can say is that it is akin to a child, who is still learning. We can’t expect an act to immediately achieve top-level effectiveness. Yet I can clearly sense that the amount of made in China stuff has decreased. Products made in China have already decreased. I can clearly sense it. Obviously, it hasn’t ceased entirely, and some things persist, because it can only prohibit ocean shipping. However, cargo, shipping by plane, and small packages valued under $800 can still enter. Hence packages from Shein and Amazon continue to arrive. Products from Taobao can come through. Also products from Alibaba, YesStyle, and similar brands, also find their way through. So in our labor rights advocacy, we call for a revision of this $800 threshold. The English term is “deminimize”, which is the minimum standard. We want it lowered. Currently, it stands at $800. Compared with China’s $50, it’s an exceptionally high figure. Many countries have thresholds at $100 or $200; In Europe, it’s $200. This $800 shipment value pertains not to the individual item. Not good’s value. It’s set on the entire package. So, what kind of items can be shipped with a value exceeding $800? Right? It must be something substantial, like a bed or a large item that may take the value over $800. But for more personal items shipped through small packages, it's challenging to detect. The Customs and Border Protection employs only a few dozen people. It’s difficult to inspect thousands of packages daily. So I can understand how arduous their work is. But I can feel there is progress, and we continuously give our advice to them.
Audience
I know you were a Min Kao Han (ethnic students studying at Han schools). How do you evaluate the Min Kao Han system? Also, in the Han region, there is a system of boarding classes for Xinjiang students. This, along with the ethnic minority preparatory course, how do you perceive it from the perspective of a Uyghur? Is it a form of welfare or an assimilation policy? My second question is that in Beijing, I believe you were a minority. So if…Did you attend the Primary School Affiliated with Minzu University of China (MUC)? I assume there weren’t many Uyghurs there. How did you feel?
Jewher
How did you know I went to MUC Primary School? Because I know
Audience
your father was a professor at MUC, so I guessed it.
Jewher
I went there. And yes, I also attended MUC Nursery. The food there was great. I was most impressed by the food. Let me think about where to start. I think this policy, its initial intention might have been good, perhaps to develop Uyghur talents. However, it was not implemented and perfected. For example, as I mentioned earlier, Uyghurs who excelled in Mandarin and went to a good university, still struggle to find employment. So, only the downsides of the policy remain. Its advantages are not shown in full. Because a student may study exceptionally well. He’s received education from the mainland, and he’s learned English and Chinese. He’s had great teachers, just like the other Han students. However, discrimination persists, and the equal employment policy is not enforced. For these students, there is only disadvantage: students who were sent to the mainland could not stay with their families. They became students like me. Basically, if you had seen me in Beijing, despite my Uyghur face, I (was indistinguishable). I even had a Beijing accent which I lost (from not speaking it) for 10 years. But if you’d seen me, but not my face, you'd think it’s a Beijinger who is speaking to you. There wasn’t a trace of being Uyghur in my actions or words. I was very “Hanized” at the time. I was fortunate that I came to the US and attended Indiana University and they offered Uyghur language courses, so I learned my mother language. What about those people who don’t have these opportunities? They became half Uyghurs. Aren’t they like the ABCs (America-born Chinese) here? When they are in China, they are not Chinese enough. When they are here, they are not American enough. There is always a sense of identity crisis. Just like I was. No matter how good my Mandarin was, throughout nursery, primary, secondary school, and high school in Beijing, people treated me differently. In my class… As my father was in business, we were well off at the time. But if someone lost something, people’s first assumption was always me. Their immediate reaction was always: “Did Jewher take it?” But why? Because I am Uyghur? Or did I wear rags that made people think I had to steal? Or is it because your stereotype is that Uyghurs are supposed to be the ones who take other people’s things? Many things like that. Whether it’s Nei Gao Ban (classes for Xinjiang students in senior high school inland) or Min Kao Han, students often feel, with Min Kao Min (ethnic students studying at ethnic schools) i.e., Uyghur students studying at Uyghur schools, they don’t have any common language. They can’t communicate. You are either too Chinese or too Uyghur. We don’t have any common language, and we can’t talk to each other. But for those students who grow up studying in Uyghur language schools, while they do manage to retain their ethnic identity and preserve their culture, they also lose opportunities for employment and further development. So I am not (saying it’s all bad). Whether Nei Gao Ban, Min Kao Han, or the bilingual system, the Chinese government might have started with good intentions. But it has not yielded the intended benefits, because it has not been implemented as it should. It has not eradicated discrimination and stereotypes. The open employment policy did not exclude the practice of considering a person’s ethnicity, and hukou (household registration). These are all very discriminatory. Did I answer your question? I have already forgotten what your question was.
Audience
There were some comments, not questions, regarding, during the White Paper Movement, the support, appeal, and focus on the Uyghurs. I think what’s important is that at the University of Southern California, during Wang Han’s rally with hundreds of people, he publicly shouted out for the Uyghurs. This “Free Uyghur” is a very important development during the White Paper Movement. Looking at this now, as you mentioned earlier, actually for Hans, for all Chinese people, the big fire in Urumqi, and the subsequent nationwide movement it led to, have a rather tragic significance. It made the Chinese realize that, through the “Zero COVID” measures and the fire in Urumqi, everyone is facing the same situation similar to a concentration camp. The one-year anniversary is approaching. Looking back, this significance remains crucial. On the issue of concentration camps, there is important work that has been done. For example, there is this person named “Guanguan”. He is a Han. He went on site to… he’s chosen a few locations mentioned on Buzzfeed and went onsite to investigate. He is probably the only one who went on site to investigate camps. So he’s pretty much verified those locations and confirmed that the BuzzFeed map is correct. He obviously could only spot-check on a few places. The locations he spot-checked basically confirmed that they were set up as concentration camps. You can find this work on YouTube. There were many reports at the time. This is great work. This person later came to the US, but he may not have spoken openly afterward. However, his videos were all posted and they are very persuasive.
Jewher
I have watched those videos. He lay down on mountaintops to take aerial shots. I believe… I recommend that everyone take a look. Also to this gentleman earlier, I suggest you watch it as well. You’ll see checkpoints and barbed wire. If it were a genuine school, why would there be armed guards at the checkpoints? Why would there be watch towers on the four corners, similar to those in prisons? Checkpoints? Observation points. And guards with guns. Weaponized. Also very tall barbed wires. I’d like to mention that our documentary is out now. “All Static and Noise”. Our poster of the documentary depicts a concentration camp with watch towers, barbed wires, and high walls. If, as claimed by the Chinese government, it is a school, is it appropriate for it to be built within a prison? And then, only people are going in, but no one is coming out. This doesn't sound like a school. I think you could pay attention to this Mr. Guanguan that Mr. Zhou Fengsuo just mentioned.
Audience
Exactly. And also on Twitter, there has been a long discussion on this matter, about concentration camps. It was not discovered through personal witness, because many people overseas did not know how serious the matter was, as everyone only knew that their family members were kept there. The real discovery was made through remote big data. So with this, the discussions on Twitter are actually very important. At first, many people thought it was due to rumors of how many people were buried alive, etc., so they believed that the CCP was preparing for a revolution or dealing with the political prisoners altogether, and that’s how those places were discovered. But later on, detailed information, such as construction permits and certificates, was found for these places. Indeed, there was no real human evidence. Later on, it was half a month or half a year later that people on this side started asking about their family members and the whereabouts of them. People then realized how serious and large-scale this matter is.
Audience
I’d like to add that the so-called national integration is unavoidable. I completely agree with Professor Ilham. I, myself, am a living example. I am a Uyghur born and raised in Beijing. My Chinese, I can boast boldly that, is no worse than anyone in this room. I can write poems and calligraphy. But it doesn’t mean (assimilation). National Integration should not be a process of assimilation, and it should not be achieved through political powers. It is a cultural integration between one culture and another. We have heard of the saying, the so-called “clashes of civilizations”, a term said by Huntington. I am actually quite against the term “clashes of civilizations”. Civilizations do not clash; they collide to become a new civilization. Civilization and barbarism are in conflict. However, civilizations are not in conflict with each other. They learn from each other and make each other better. In Xinjiang, many Uyghur words are incorporated into Mandarin in Xinjiang. Such a strong language spoken by 1 billion people is influenced by the Uyghur language when used in Xinjiang. It’s the same in terms of music or other aspects. Therefore, the phrase “national integration is unavoidable” is something I completely agree with, but it should be a civilized process. Regarding nut cakes and thieves, it seems to be a stereotype people have about Uyghurs. Actually this phenomenon has only appeared in the last 30 years. Before that, when I left China in 1989, the overall level of education of the Uyghurs in Xinjiang, their cultural level, and their economic level were all similar to that of China. To that of the mainland. It was not an obviously backward area. And maybe because Xinjiang was defined as a border area, the income was even higher, and the salary level was higher. Generally speaking, Xinjiang was definitely not a backward area. However, why did it gradually become a backward region? It has something to do with what happened in the 1990s. In Xinjiang, there was a guy called Wang Lequan. That bastard named Wang. This is not, excuse me, this is not discriminating against people with the family name Wang. But basically a situation arose when Xinjiang became a border area. In the 1990s, policies eased to boost the economy, especially after Deng Xiaoping’s south tour. Xinjiang started to develop, but the economic status of the Uyghurs started to lag significantly. Why is that? The reason behind this was the Wang family. Interestingly, among the people who became the richest in Xinjiang, there were ethnic minorities, like the one called what? Our Uyghur mum, Rebiya. Yes, I almost forgot her name. This Rebiya was one of the few who made money. But after making too much, she was locked up. But who were the people making the most money in Xinjiang? It was, first of all, Han Chinese. Who made the most among the Hans? It was the Shandong people. Who made the most money among the Shandong people? It was relatives of Wang Lequan. This class formation occurred in the 1990s. That is to say, after the Han people gained absolute political advantage in Xinjiang, they started economic exploitation of the Uyghurs. From the 1990s, the Uyghurs began to experience an obvious economic lag. There is an interesting phenomenon: the hardest and toughest jobs in Xinjiang, such as cleaning and street sweeping, are all done by the Uyghurs, and not a single Han. This happened gradually after the 1990s when the Uyghurs became economically marginalized in their own region. As they were exploited and oppressed, a pattern emerged, just like in the US, when certain groups are economically exploited, crime rates begin to rise, and other related issues appear. So the matter is ultimately caused by the CCP and the government. So this is the background. Today we also talked about the issue of the Han population. I’d like to just add that in 1949, the population of Xinjiang was about 5 million, with 4 million Uyghurs, which was 80% of the population. This is the census data in 1949. Over the years, when the census showed that the Uyghur population reached 8 million, Han Chinese also reached 8 million. That is, as the Uyghur population doubled, the Han population increased twentyfold. Then many years later, when the Uyghur population was said to be 1.1 million, the number of Han Chinese exceeded the Uyghur population. These calculations only consider Han people with household registrations in Xinjiang. After 2000, we know that traveling in China, in terms of household registration, is not the same as in the 1980s when registration was a tool for controlling population migration. So there are more Han people in Xinjiang whose registrations are not in Xinjiang. But all Uyghurs calculated are locally registered. So they are all where they are registered. So the increase of the Uyghur population since 1949 has been less than 3 times, whereas the Han population boosted dozens of times. So this is presented as an objective reality for you to analyze. Then actually, I just heard Jewher talk about another topic. I am sitting here feeling quite strongly about it. When she said, “It’s understandable, you can be patriotic,” when she said that, I thought, “Oh well, you really are like your dad.” As a Chinese democracy activist, let me tell you what being patriotic means. In the history of China, most patriots were against the government. That is to say, if you don’t have an anti-government spirit, don’t claim you are patriotic. Isn’t that right? (Zhou) Fengsuo agrees. This is how firmly patriotic we thought we were back when we were at Tiananmen. Therefore, on the word “patriotism”, we have some say from history. I really like a quote from my good friend Wang Dan. When talking about the "May Fourth" commemoration, he said the "May Fourth" spirit is patriotism, that’s why it’s anti-government. If we are overseas, and you want to be patriotic Chinese, please start by being anti-government. This is a patriotic spirit. Sorry for taking up so much time. Thank you, thank you.
Jewher
I’d like to go back to the last point. I think the Chinese government deliberately merges government and country. If you oppose the government, you are unpatriotic. They intentionally spread this concept to make people feel that if they criticize the government, they are being unpatriotic. I believe the Chinese government is deliberately transmitting this concept. But as I mentioned, the parents who truly love their children will criticize them so that they can do better, and provide them with a better solution. Anti-China and anti-government are two different things. They are completely, totally different concepts.
Audience
Today, on the one hand, I find Jewher’s moderate stance and the spirit of taking ten thousand steps back commendable. On the other hand, I want to remind you that taking 10 thousand steps back can be patronizing to the audience. You might feel that you have to take 10 thousand steps back for them to understand. Not necessarily. I believe people attending the Democracy Salon (Now Zephyr Society) don’t need to make you take steps back and don’t need to be like your Dad…
Jewher
I hope so.
Audience
Yes, me too. But let’s treat them like that. You mentioned the guilt-trap, and I actually really want to guilt-trap everyone present here. Because today, we shouldn’t always use the excuse of saying, “I’ve taken ten thousand steps back, so I hope you can understand me.” Can we turn back and talk about taking ten thousand steps forward now to discuss a reasonable statement that you can understand? If you can understand, I will state that because of patriotism, one should be anti-government. If you agree that the Chinese government is so despicable, but you didn’t think about it before, when you go back home today, I urge you to reflect on why you didn’t think in the past the CCP was despicable. It’s something along these lines. Turning back to another point. The host also covered many topics at the beginning. So this topic I am thinking of struck a chord with me, though it’s not related to today’s theme. You’ve organized this event, and I’ve seen things you’ve done. You’ve done a really good job, and I appreciate it. But at the same time, we don't have to be that afraid. For example, you talked about many rules at the beginning to protect the participants so (their identities) are not revealed, and they are not (targeted). I understand these completely. However, well, I’ve always thought, if I say it in English, it is “fearless is a valid option”. So being fearless is an option. A valid option. Or even conversely, being fearless gives you strength. Fearlessness is a source of strength. Today I want to play my old age card here and educate you young people a bit. You don’t have to be so afraid. Being fearless is a valid option. I hope everyone keeps up the good work.
Jewher
About the safety measures you mentioned, I know many kids new to democracy movements still worry about their own safety and the safety of their families. I can understand this. So after dealing with the wedding matters, I plan to conduct a free webinar. Everyone can join in, and you can turn off your video camera, and use whatever alias—potato, cheese, whatever you want. You don't need to use your real name to join. I plan to do a 1 to 2-hour webinar to guide people step by step on how to hide their own identity. It is the footprints you leave online. This will allow you to be in the democracy movement while ensuring safety and preventing identity leaks, if that is a concern. I will coordinate with the Democracy Salon. I will be the only one with the video camera on, and everyone else can keep it off. I am planning on offering this free webinar, because for me, over the 9 years of advocacy work, over the years of advocating, I’ve come to realize how important this is. It's not just about protecting myself, but also the people around me. I have contacts on my phone whom I might not even know very well, but their safety might be compromised because of me. So this is also for the safety of other people. I specifically went to learn about it. I contacted relevant professionals and experts. I am willing to share this knowledge with you. If you are interested, keep following the Democracy Salon. I will get in touch with you. It’ll probably be around December. Yes, next month is not my big wedding. It's my Islamic (wedding). We call it Nikah. It’s an Islamic wedding ceremony and we’ll be going to the Mosque. I want to do it in a very traditional and very orthodox way. Because if I were in China, I would definitely not be able to do it. So what’s not allowed there, I am doing it here.
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